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Cat · #62 Yesterday, 12:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe370

I guess my question to them would be: Is this sort of reasoning justified? Why not consider the opinion of those catholics that did in fact make a conscious, mature decision to embrace catholicism. What about those folks, (like you and me) that were presented with the evangelical protestant version of the Gospel of Jesus, and chose catholicism and rejected evangelical protestantism?

I agree with you that this is a good question to ask Evangelical Protestants.

Quote:

Just curious: Do you believe that Jesus draws people away from His church? Perhaps their reasoning is flawed. They certainly do.

No, I do not believe that the Holy Spirit draws people away from the Catholic Church.

I believe that people are "enticed by their own lust," as James describes it (chapter 1). Obviously a desire for good music, friendly people, and lively sermons is not "sin", and I see nothing wrong with Catholics asking their priest if the music in the Mass can be improved, or if more opportunities for social times can be offered in the parish.

But it can become a sinful thing when people are enticed away from Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament by their desires for "music that makes them feel closer to Him," or some other external that makes them "feel" better about their Christianity.

I'm not just talking about contemporary music. It works both ways. I know Catholics who left the Catholic church to attend Protestant churches because the CLASSICAL music is excellent.

Quote:

Belong to Jesus' one church or be influenced by stats...Hmm...

I am not being sarcastic...

I don't understand your point. Stats are stats. Yes, they can be manipulated. But there are plenty of stats documenting that many Evangelical Protestant were baptized, confirmed, and raised Catholic.

Quote:

Why do you think this is? Perhaps poor catechesis, poor judgement on the part of the person leaving or a combination of both? What would you say to them to encourage them to stay?

Yes, poor catechesis, but as I mentioned in my other post, sometimes the knowledge makes no difference. Often people would rather be happy rather than know the truth.

I'm serious. So what if the Catholic Church is the True Church of Jesus--if all the people in a parish are snotty and stand-offish, and the music is poorly-done and a constant source of conflict (traditional vs. contemporary), and there are no good programs for children or teenagers or anyone else, and the priest speaks with a strong accent that you can't understand--it's very very hard to stay in a church like this when right down the road, there is a lively church where the people are warm and welcoming, the music is beautiful, and the pastor preaches interesting sermons from an open Bible.

What would I say? I would tell people that truth is more important than externals, and that if we are unhappy in a parish, we should either change parishes, or work hard to find a way to bring about positive changes in the parish.

Quote:

Cool. Why did you become catholic?

My husband and I became Catholic because we became convinced, after two years of study (a lot of study, not just one conference and pamphlet or two), that the Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus Christ, and that it is perfectly in line with everything in the Bible.

We never would have visited the Catholic Church. We had no reason to visit the Catholic Church until we were kicked out of our Evangelical Free church. It was horrific--trumped up charges by a jealous woman pastor, a tribunal of people who had never met us before, and all our words and acts of service and ministry in that church were twisted and turned against us by this woman pastor and her allies. I still have occasional nightmares about it. After our ousting, I swore to never return to ANY church unless I was "wooed" in by Jesus Himself.

But out of obedience to the teaching in Hebrews 10, we started attending the Catholic Church down the road, with no intention of becoming Catholic. We were just obeying Jesus, the only Person that we still trusted.

Cat · #63 Yesterday, 12:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe370

True. However, I have never heard of protestant churches rolling out a keg at the end of the day?

I'm sorry, I must have been unclear in my post. I was talking about CATHOLIC churches rolling out the keg at their picnics and socials. You're right, I have never seen--and I hope never to see--an Evangelical Protestant church serve liquor at a church function. Some of the mainlines might serve wine at a church dinner. But I would not expect to see this at any Evangelical Protestant church function, and I would be pretty shocked to see it in a private social occasion hosted by Evangelical Protestants. Most Evangelical Protestants that I know still consider alcohol use a sin or an occasion for sin, and frown upon its use as "unnecessary" for those who know Jesus and are experiencing the joy of the abundant life.

In another thread, someone pointed out that Evangelical Protestants are different in different parts of the U.S. So perhaps out East or West, Evangelical Protestants imbibe without shame. But not here in the Midwest.

PJM · #64 Yesterday, 1:52 pm

Quote:

=Cat;10707742]To which Evangelical Protestants would respond, "Many of these were born into Catholicism, and have never actually made a conscious, mature decision to embrace Catholicism. And many of these, when presented with the Evangelical Protestant version of the Gospel of Jesus, leave Catholicism and embrace Evangelical Protestantism."

And they have the stats to prove it.

To which Evangelical Protestants would respond, "Yes, God DOES pluck many thousands of Catholics from Catholicism and bring them into Evangelical Protestant churches."

And again, they have the stats to prove it. It's amazing how many Catholics leave the Church to attend Evangelical Protestant churches, not only in the United States, but in South America.

Speaking from personal experience in Evangelical Protestant churches, I would say that between 10-25% of the people in our churches were former Catholics. And I would say that 25-50% of the people had Catholic parents who had left Catholicism and raised their children in Evangelical Protestant churches.

But the fact is, the Catholic Church does not teach "Bible alone," but teaches a "three-legged stool" organization: The Bible, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium. A Catholic who relies only on prayer and the Bible for correct teaching is not practicing correct Catholicism.

I agree, our priests in our diocese encourage people to pray and read the Bible, and there are plenty of Bible studies. But these are ALWAYS done with the Bible AND the Catechism of the Catholic Church, not just the Bible. And the teachers of these studies are qualified individuals who have been through some pretty extensive ministry training, not just a parish member who is willing to "facilitate" the study.

I mean, knowing people.

I attended Evangelical Protestant churches that had around 500 people in attendance. I knew most of these people. Honest. I knew their names, first and last, and I knew their children, and I often enjoyed social times with them in restaurants and in our homes, and during church and Sunday school, I sat with them and knew who I was sitting next to. I did a lot of work with these people (church work).

And we loved each other.

Here's an example of how fellowship in the Evangelical Protestant world works. Years ago, when my husband and I had just started attending our church down in Raleigh, a man in our church was killed on his job (manual laborer, forklift accident). It came across the news and I recognized the name. (I'm not sure I would recognize the name of ANY of the parishioners at my Catholic parish, other than the twenty or so people that I know.)

I immediately gathered up my baby (she was about three months old) and drove over to this lady's house. (Yes, I knew where she lived. I only know where a few people in my parish live!).

When I got there, at least a hundred other ladies were there, comforting the grieving wife and her son. During the next year or so, we kept visiting her, bringing food, and crying with her.

Maybe it happens where you are, and if so, you are greatly blessed. Maybe it happens when Catholics have grown up together. But my husband and I are still very much alone in our parish. And we are friendly, outgoing people who are involved with several ministries in the parish. We know a lot of people by sight, but not in heart.

I know about twenty people in my parish of 7000. It's physically very difficult to get to know people in the Catholic Church, because we do not speak with each other before or after Mass in the nave, and once Mass is finished, there is a stampede to get out the door. We chat with people in the lobby, and because I play piano, a lot of people come up to me and thank me for playing. But people do the same thing at a CONCERT. In spite of all the attempts to make sure that the Mass is not "theater," I think a lot of Catholics still see it as "theater," because they behave as though it's theater.

And of course, there's the drinking thing. My husband and I have a very difficult time with liquor use by Christians. We try to feel comfortable, but we don't, and I don't think we ever will. That's leaves out about 90% of the parishioners. We don't have much in common with them other than our Catholicism.

continued next post

As one who taught RCIA for 3 years and much other teaching and working with non-Catholic-christians; it is apparent that one of the HUGE obstacles they must over come is the SHOCKING difference in Protestant emphasis on Fellowship verses Catholics focus Divine Worship.

Within the Catholic communities there is fellowship, BUT is separated from Worship.

Because Catholics Do have Jesus Christ in Person, Really; Truly and Substanually present; Catholics meet For Devine Worship. Everything else must be secondary.

Protestants commonly focus of “feeling” of friendship; MORE than worship actually ON God. This is to be expected because all they can do is “speak about” God; while catholics Speak to and with God.

KEEP Holy the Sabbath is ALL about Devine worship; not fellowship; not feeling good about the pastor or the community; BUT growing closer to; acknowledging and Worshiping God in our very midst.

Cat · #65 Yesterday, 8:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJM

As one who taught RCIA for 3 years and much other teaching and working with non-Catholic-christians; it is apparent that one of the HUGE obstacles they must over come is the SHOCKING difference in Protestant emphasis on Fellowship verses Catholics focus Divine Worship.

Within the Catholic communities there is fellowship, BUT is separated from Worship.

Because Catholics Do have Jesus Christ in Person, Really; Truly and Substanually present; Catholics meet For Devine Worship. Everything else must be secondary.

Protestants commonly focus of “feeling” of friendship; MORE than worship actually ON God. This is to be expected because all they can do is “speak about” God; while catholics Speak to and with God.

KEEP Holy the Sabbath is ALL about Devine worship; not fellowship; not feeling good about the pastor or the community; BUT growing closer to; acknowledging and Worshiping God in our very midst.

I strongly disagree that all Protestants can do is "speak about God." This is just the kind of thing that I was saying earlier, that many Catholics seem to believe that Protestants are incapable of knowing God as long as they remain Protestant. If I am not misinterpreting you and this is what you are saying, then it is not in line with the Catechism. Protestants can speak to and with God, and do so all the time!

If during the 47 years that I was Evangelical Protestant, I had not been able to speak with God, then how is it that I RECOGNIZED HIM in the Eucharist when I started attending Mass?! I would not have recognized someone that I had never met and didn't know.

I disagree that Protestants focus on the "feeling" of friendship more than worship of God. Their Sunday times together are called "Worship Services." They are there to worship God, not be part of a social club.

And Protestants do NOT focus on the "feeling" of friendship. They focus on truly and sincerely loving, in Christ, all their Christians brothers and sisters. After all, this was Christ's command to us--He said that by this men will know that we are His--by our LOVE for each other. He was the One who said that the Greatest Commandment is to Love God, and the 2nd Greatest Commandment is to love our neighbor.

What's different about Catholics and Protestants is that Catholics believe that the Mass is the best way to worship God (which I agree with), while Protestants believe that we worship God in all that we say and do, and not just when we are at church. Protestants say that all of our lives are acts of worship to God. Prayer and Bible reading, listening to sermons and other teachings, music, testimonies, and fellowship are all ways to worship God.

And Protestants would not advocate a "sit and chat" type of fellowship during the Mass. Of course not. But there is a fellowship between believers that is happening during the most quiet and solemn Mass. I'm not sure if Catholics understand that. I think that the Catholic practice of separating "fellowship" from Mass, and saving it for outside of the Mass is wrong. "Christian fellowship" is not the same thing as "Christian socializing."

Evangelical Protestants understand that concept--that socializing and fellowship are not the same thing. I think that's one reason they sing so enthusiastically--because singing together is one way that Christians have always, since the beginning of Christianity, enjoyed fellowship together. But Catholics don't seem to realize that they can have deep and rich fellowship during the Mass without saying one word to each other, but instead, by participating TOGETHER with other Christians in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. We are truly One in the Spirit, and that's what fellowship is.

I think it's too bad when Catholics put out a message to "Leave your fellowship at the door, this is the MASS!"

Blacksword · #66 Today, 5:45 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat

I strongly disagree that all Protestants can do is "speak about God." This is just the kind of thing that I was saying earlier, that many Catholics seem to believe that Protestants are incapable of knowing God as long as they remain Protestant. If I am not misinterpreting you and this is what you are saying, then it is not in line with the Catechism. Protestants can speak to and with God, and do so all the time!

If during the 47 years that I was Evangelical Protestant, I had not been able to speak with God, then how is it that I RECOGNIZED HIM in the Eucharist when I started attending Mass?! I would not have recognized someone that I had never met and didn't know.

I disagree that Protestants focus on the "feeling" of friendship more than worship of God. Their Sunday times together are called "Worship Services." They are there to worship God, not be part of a social club.

And Protestants do NOT focus on the "feeling" of friendship. They focus on truly and sincerely loving, in Christ, all their Christians brothers and sisters. After all, this was Christ's command to us--He said that by this men will know that we are His--by our LOVE for each other. He was the One who said that the Greatest Commandment is to Love God, and the 2nd Greatest Commandment is to love our neighbor.

What's different about Catholics and Protestants is that Catholics believe that the Mass is the best way to worship God (which I agree with), while Protestants believe that we worship God in all that we say and do, and not just when we are at church. Protestants say that all of our lives are acts of worship to God. Prayer and Bible reading, listening to sermons and other teachings, music, testimonies, and fellowship are all ways to worship God.

And Protestants would not advocate a "sit and chat" type of fellowship during the Mass. Of course not. But there is a fellowship between believers that is happening during the most quiet and solemn Mass. I'm not sure if Catholics understand that. I think that the Catholic practice of separating "fellowship" from Mass, and saving it for outside of the Mass is wrong. "Christian fellowship" is not the same thing as "Christian socializing."

Evangelical Protestants understand that concept--that socializing and fellowship are not the same thing. I think that's one reason they sing so enthusiastically--because singing together is one way that Christians have always, since the beginning of Christianity, enjoyed fellowship together. But Catholics don't seem to realize that they can have deep and rich fellowship during the Mass without saying one word to each other, but instead, by participating TOGETHER with other Christians in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. We are truly One in the Spirit, and that's what fellowship is.

I think it's too bad when Catholics put out a message to "Leave your fellowship at the door, this is the MASS!"

Some very good points. One question though your post brings, and I know this is off-topic, but why is it that more Catholics don't sing at all during Mass? That is a puzzling difference between the Catholic experience most places and the non-denominational mega-church experience down the road. I sing, have had some serious years of training yes, but still I sing out, and even my four year old daughter sings loudly now (sweet but with the complete tone-deafness only a four year old can muster!) and people around us laugh at her cuteness but are almost silent themselves...

TheRealJuliane · #67 Today, 5:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by WingsOfEagles

Some of them are misinformed on our beliefs about Saints. They will try to imply that we are polytheistic. They will try to claim that we put Mary on the same level as God. They have a tough time with us asking the Saints and Mary to pray for us.

The other big sticking point I have found is the Faith vs. Works argument. They will try to claim that Catholics just do X,Y, and Z, rather than actually loving Jesus.

However, I will say the majority do not claim that we aren't Christian, but that we are extremely misguided Christians. I find many times their ministers are quicker to say we are going to hell than the average member attending one of those churches.

This. But I adamantly disagree about the majority of Baptists admitting that Catholics are Christians. I know that the Southern Baptists do NOT believe that Catholics are Christians and they actively try to covert us to a truly Christian faith.

We pray to Mary instead of Jesus.
We worship statues/idols.
We confess to a man.
We call a man "Father."
We believe that works are critical to salvation.
We crucify Jesus every Sunday.
We have a Pope who is only a man (see calling a man, "Father" above).
We babble our prayers in repetition.
We use superstition in our rituals (holy water, crossing self, sacramentals like rosaries, etc.)

And these are taught to them from childhood.

joe370 · #68 Today, 7:47 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealJuliane

This. But I adamantly disagree about the majority of Baptists admitting that Catholics are Christians. I know that the Southern Baptists do NOT believe that Catholics are Christians and they actively try to covert us to a truly Christian faith.

We pray to Mary instead of Jesus.
We worship statues/idols.
We confess to a man.
We call a man "Father."
We believe that works are critical to salvation.
We crucify Jesus every Sunday.
We have a Pope who is only a man (see calling a man, "Father" above).
We babble our prayers in repetition.
We use superstition in our rituals (holy water, crossing self, sacramentals like rosaries, etc.)

And these are taught to them from childhood.

My sister (now attending a Baptist church) used to say all of the same things. You forgot one: the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon.

Best just to pray for anti-Catholic folks who focus on such silliness. The most ridiculous claim would have to be: Catholics crucify Jesus every Sunday (or everyday for that matter).

PJM · #69 Today, 7:57 am

Quote:

=Bklynguy;10708725]Yes, I know. Our church has been around for 2,000 years--the church fathers were, in fact, martyrs for the faith. And yet, these groups spring up 1500, 1600, and in some cases 1700-1800 years after the fact, and say THEY are the real Christians. Yeah right. As someone rightly said earlier, it is an inferiority complex.

Truth is greatly damaged by a LACK of Christian charity

PJM · #70 Today, 8:14 am

Quote:

Evangelical Protestantism is a very "safe" place.

Now don't get the wrong idea. I'm not talking about physical safety. There are thousands of Evangelical Protestants, many in the last one hundred years, who have been horrifically martyred for their faith. I personally knew and know people who lost husbands, parents, and/or children over on foreign mission fields. Their loved ones were tortured and killed because they were Christians.

So when I say, "safe," I'm not talking about "safety from martyrdom."

I'm talking about innocent, pure, fun, loving, friendly, honest--very very honest--daily life.

One thing that can make me lose my temper around Catholics is when they say, with a smug expression on their faces, that "Evangelicals only PRETEND not to drink alcohol, but they have their secret stash at home, and drink in private."

I'm sure that some do. But most don't. Most Evangelical Protestants are very honest and live open lives. They aren't hiding anything. It's hard to hide any glaring sin in the Evangelical Protestant churches, because someone will figure it out (the Holy Spirit will lead them to discover the truth), and they will "out" that person, and there will be a public reckoning. I'm not talking about the "heinous" sins here. I'm talking about things like "use of alcohol" or some other addiction. A lot of Evangelical Protestants have formed "accountability groups" to help the many many men who use porn.

Quote:

=joe370;10708726]True. However, I have never heard of protestant churches rolling out a keg at the end of the day?

Nice post. I enjoyed reading it, and I certainly agree, speaking as a former non-catholic.

SEVERAL Points seem prudent here:

So long as the Commandment of Charity is adhered too [John 13:34] and one is serving God; it is a very good thing; that catholics ought to appreciate.

The Protestant ban on all Alcohol not biblically grounded. Christ dran wine; the Most holy Eucharist is cinfected from Transubstanuated bread and wine.

Like Gluttony; it is the OVER consumptionnthat is sinful.

Matthew 15:11 "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man: but what cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man"

TRUTH: Like God Himslef are singular

Christ abides ONLY One set of Faith beliefs that He did not wait over 1,000 years to make known

And in both the OT and the NT; God choose only One church; that one which he personally founded. Amen

Let us Pray that the Holy Spirit grant true Wisdom and coutage so that God's desire for a single church and faith can be reality.

1patterson · #71 Today, 1:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJM

OK

So MY Friend; what is your point?

I'd like to engage you in conversation, but I'm missing what you choose to discuss

{no dount my fault

} so help me out here.

God Bless you,
pat /PJM

hello-- i believe the point was --

why do Baptists say Catholics are not christians ?

and taken from the articals on this site, were the reasons -- that catholics are not considered christians-

all though an interesting question is why do baptist's believe they do not need a "valid priesthood"

because with out a "valid" priest hoood , you can't have the real presence or transubstantiation..
so it has to be a symbol--

and then the Baptist's look at all the symbols contained in the ceremonies and in the church buildings''

it just kinda makes ya wonder

usurercatholic · #72 Today, 2:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bklynguy

Yes, I know. Our church has been around for 2,000 years--the church fathers were, in fact, martyrs for the faith. And yet, these groups spring up 1500, 1600, and in some cases 1700-1800 years after the fact, and say THEY are the real Christians. Yeah right. As someone rightly said earlier, it is an inferiority complex.

are u sure about the 2,000 years?

Emperor Constantine, who made the Catholic religion of the Holy Roman Empire.

The single most important event in all Jewish history changing Judaism from being an active missionizing religion was the following edict by Emperor Constantine in the year 315 CE:

“I. Laws of Constantine the Great, October 18, 315: Concerning Jews, Heaven-Worshippers,* And Samaritans

We wish to make it known to the Jews and their elders and their patriarchs that if, after the enactment of this law, any one of them dares to attack with stones or some other manifestation of anger another who has fled their dangerous sect and attached himself to the worship of God [Christianity], he must speedily be given to the flames and burn~ together with all his accomplices.

Moreover, if any one of the population should join their abominable sect and attend their meetings, he will bear with them the deserved penalties.”

In one ruling Emperor Constantine made it illegal for Jews to missionize, protected Jews who became Christians, and forbade Christians from ever marrying Jews (this was in the second section of his law). Imagine how many Jews there would be in the world today if Constantine had not banned Jewish missionizing?

todays catholic religion is a result of this-- and it is not difficult to see why-- YAWAH or the Holy Spirit had to raise up people -- or prophets-- to expose the error of the catholic religious system--

this is not a new thing-- it happened many times in the Old Testament- with the Israel nation -- just as it happens today over the last 2,000 years--or more--

and just like in the nation of Israel -- and in the time of Jesus the religious systems-- kills the prophets-- of God--

it is easy to see the additional "rules" and sins that have been added to the catholic bible.

Deuteronomy 6:4-9

New International Version (NIV)

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

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Re: Why do Baptists say Catholics are not Christians?-----usurercatholic